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Categorías > Debate Teológico > Escatologia >


Black (hace 3650 dias) (0)

I am confused in reading the prophecies of the end times.Our pastors preach that the church replaced the chosen nation of Israel and that mean that I cannot read what was written eg. Revelation 7 where it is mentioned that 144000 Jews  are sealed.Our pastors say that it is a simbolic number and it mean the total number of Christians.Can anybody shine some light on this theology?



Urantian (hace 3648 dias) (0)

@ Black: I was confused too. Later I learned that the Book of Revelation is incomplete..-pages missing, burned or just lost..- Hard to get the real message, but it seems it was a beautiful book..- I don't read it anymore but there are some lines of conduct that are good to follow for those who want to follow Jesus and be, ultimately, God-like..- 


henri (hace 3639 dias) (0)


Je suis Joseph, un pasteur pentecotiste résident à Douala au Cameroun. Je suis interessé par le sujet sur l'eschatologie évoqué par un membre de ce site, quoique n'étant pas encore inscrit. Je voudrais participer en donnant quelques détails sur les prophéties de la fin des temps. Mais seulement, je voudrais que vous m'aidiez à trouver le lien qui me permet de devenir membre de cross.tv, je pense que nous bénéficieront tous de ce partage. Mon email: joseph_kah@yahoo.fr


henri (hace 3639 dias) (0)

Ok! the 144 000 people mentioned in the book of revelation 7: 5 is concerning the Israelites who will be redeemed from every tribe as mentioned by the book. Every tribe will have 12 000 redeemed. Now, 12000X12=144 000 redeemed only in Israel. From verse 9 of the same chapter, there is a crowd the no one can number from all the tribes and nations of the earth. This is talking of the gentiles who accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and persevered till the end in Him. They have been washed by the blood of the Lamb and are now clothes in white garments. For more details contact me at: joseph_kah@yahoo.fr Thanks and God bless you


Urantian (hace 3638 dias) (0)

In my understanding these 144000 chosen virgins have never uttered a lie and have not defiled themselves with a woman. The actual time when they were chosen or when they ride with the Lamb in white horses is unknown to me. In revelation 19:14 says: "-The armies of Heaven were behind Him riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, pure and white."

Many have said that numbers in the revelation book are symbolic: 7, 12, 4, 144000. 10 etc.. but with many pages missing in the book it is harder to know the truth.. -In some places there is precision about the quantities in others that is left to the imagination..- Nevertheless the message remains that the Beast, 666, represents Materialism and somehow we are called to become more and more spiritual, getting closer and closer to the God of the Heavens. God is Spirit.. so we are called to become spiritual, God-like..-


Urantian (hace 3638 dias) (0)

When one understands that the Beast, 666, represents the material part of existence, the low instincts of animal nature in any human because we are of animal origin.. then all God-knowing persons will also understand why Jesus-Christ came to us in human form. Did He not come, among other things, to liberate humanity from a material oriented world..?? Did he not give all of us the opportinity to find joy and happiness and hope for a better life here and beyond..?? Jesus opened a door for all. His message was that we are all brothers and that we all have the same Father. He talked about the Brotherhood of Man and of the Fatherhood of God.. and He was speaking not only for us, in this Planet, but also for all other inhabited worls in His Universe.. and beyond.


Black (hace 3636 dias) (0)


Thanx for your comment

That is what I am reading in the scriptures as well - does it mean that the replacement theology that pastors preach is a false theology?

Petro Van Den Bosch Ministries

Petro Van Den Bosch Ministries (hace 3426 dias) (0)


Revelation 7:9
(9)  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;



I just like to share this with you all. 


Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." (KJV)

1) This is talking about a vision in heaven... not on earth. 
2) Thousands are talking about "many", "much" or "big" and is not litteral. 
3) We can never decide for ourselfs and make our own mixure of what is litteral and what is symbolic. Or the hole book is symbolic or the hole book is litteral. For exemple: who has the autority to decide that the mark of the beast is litteral and the mark of the saints should be symbolic? Is it Mr so and so because he wrote a book? 
3) Gods people was always a people of faith (Rom 4:3)
Concerning the "thousands" that are talking about "bigger, much better", you can compare Rev 21 with the writings of Herodotus and see for yourself that the "thousands" are symbolic. Don't forget Herodotus was born a long time before Paul came in Asia minor. Herodotus was from that same region: he was born in Bodrum, not far from Cos, Kindos, and Ephesus. The Christians of the 7 churches knew, of course, his writings.   

Herodotus book 1 chapiter 178 "Assyria possesses a vast number of great cities, whereof the most renowned and strongest at this time was Babylon, whither, after the fall of Nineveh, the seat of government had been removed. The following is a description of the place:- The city stands on a broad plain, and is an exact square, a hundred and twenty furlongs in length each way, so that the entire circuit is four hundred and eighty furlongs. While such is its size, in magnificence there is no other city that approaches to it. It is surrounded, in the first place, by a broad and deep moat, full of water, behind which rises a wall fifty royal cubits in width, and two hundred in height. (The royal cubit is longer by three fingers' breadth than the common cubit."



Schweet (hace 3413 dias) (0)

It's not so confusing really, if you know what the rest of the Bible has been about up to this point.

The Bible is one consistent story, revealing God progressively through history.

So it starts with God creating all things, with mankind as his appointed ruler over His creation. All is good and there is perfect relationship between man, women, nature, and God. Mankind chooses to break these relationships by rebelling against God when choosing to disobey Him. This is spurred on by Satan. God judges Man's rebellion by condeming him to a life of hardship, broken relationships and ultimately death. However, even during his judgement He gives man hope, by telling him that there will be one who will rescue him from Satan and from judgement - the first promise, the promise of a rescuer.

So mankind lives in anticipation of the rescuer throughout the Old Testament, and struggles with sin and trying to understand God during this search. Is Moses the rescuer - no, but one like Moses will come. Is David? No - but one like David will come. During this time, God gives promises that clarify who this Rescuer will be (eg in the human line of Abraham, but will be God Himself!), and clarifies what the rescue will achieve (a place better than a return to Eden, a people made of many thousands, a ruler that surpasses all other rulers, and God will dwell with His people). The Old Testament is a foreshadow of the things to come - an illustration so that God's people can recognise the Rescuer and understand why He has come. So for example, God dwells with His people in Eden, then in the tabernacle, then in the temple...but ultimately in Jesus. He shows what He is like through the giving of His law ie He is holy, but He also hilights His people's need to be rescued by giving them the Law...they are unable to keep the Law no matter how hard they try. There are also common symbolic threads that God uses to teach His people, and they are used over and over again eg water as a symbol of renewal and life-giving, culminating in an abundant river of life in Revelations.

So when Jesus comes, He is the culmination of all the prophecies, promises, illustrations,the law, the symbols - He is what the Old Testament has been leading up to all along. Those who think they understand this are really excited - but then He dies?!! But we now know that this was the way that He rescued Mankind - His death was the way that the Rescue Plan was carried out.

BUT, it didn't end there. Jesus went back to Heaven?? His disciples must have wondered how the promises were to be fullfilled if Jesus was no longer on Earth.

That was not the end of the story, and we are still even today not there yet. Even though the Rescue has been completed once and for all, the Reason for the Rescue is still to come - and the ultimate fullfillment of Gods' promises are still to come: the promises of God's People, in God's Place, under God's Rule, enjoying his Blessing - forever.

Therefore all things will find their culmination and conclusion when Jesus returns. Therefore all creation yearns for His return, it is the end goal that all creation, including Christians, strive for - to see Christ glorified. We live in gratitude of the work He has done (His death on the Cross), but we work towards having His people called from every nation, so that they may be restored under His perfect rule upon his return.

Revelation is poetic (like much of the Bible actually) and cryptic, yes. There is a lot that can be placed under the 'I'm not so sure what this specifically means' heading. This is to be expected, since we don't have the benefit of retrospection. But Revelation is a part of the larger story, a last piece of the progressively revealed tale. It describes the conclusion of God's plan that has been revealed throughout the Bible. It is a cohesive part of a whole. As such, that which came before (Old Testament and New Testament), can be used to continue to 'translate' Revelation. And because it is the same Bible, and God's mission and person remain constant, it's message remains constant.

The message is this: God is Good. God is our Rescuer. God is Jesus. His purpose is to have Jesus glorified, by having all creation reconcilled to Him. This reconcilliation will result in a perfect people, under His perfect rule, in God's place, enjoying His abundant blessing eternally.

As for Israel's rescue, I would not rest on the fact that I am of Hebrew descent for my salvation. The Pharaisees were 'perfect' Jews, and Jesus called them a brood of vipers. God has always called His people from all nations, (Abraham was a Moon worshiper; I can't recall her name but there was a gentile prostitute who becomes an ancestor of Jesus). There was nothing that particularly seperated the Jews from any other, nothing that distinguished them above all others. But He chose them despite this, so that they might be a beacon to all nations, to draw Mankind to Himself. It was only Himself that made the Jews stick out like sore thumbs. When others had many Gods, the Jews had one. The nations around them had kings, yet the Jews' king was God. When others had temple prostitutes, God forbade prostitution. God does not, and never has, care for ethnicity. He cares about the state of one's heart, and particularly the rebellion of our hearts against His ruler - Jesus. I believe the 144000 is another persistent symbol, one carried throughout the Bible. 12 tribes of Israel (God's Abrahamic promise) x 12 disciples (God's heart-reformed people promise)x 100 000 being a great multitude. In other words, God's perfected people, Jewish or not, in their multitudes - sanctified by Jesus from all nations. Humanity restored to a better Eden.

Be very careful of drawing conclusions from one verse, or one book, that has not been repeated over and over again in the rest of the Bible. God says the same thing in different (seemingly mystical) ways. But his mission has always been constant.

There is therefore no false 'replacement theology'. It is the same theology: God's people are those whom He rescues. God's people have always been from all nations, they are those who believed His promise of a Rescuer, and put their faith in that Rescuer. Abraham didn't know Jesus by name, but his faith in God's promise was credited to him. A big downfall for the Jews was that they thought they were 'safe' because they were Jewish - Jesus blew that theory out of the water time and time again.

As for our need to be more 'spiritual'? Jesus is still in a body, even though it is a glorified one. His disciples touched the scars on his hands. Our bodies will also be reformed to be like His. Our future bodies are described as being made of flesh. We are not to detest our physical selves, as something to graduate from, as they too will persist into eternity.

I don't believe that there are pages missing from the book of Revelation- it is too cohesive within itself and the rest of the Bible for that.

I would suggest studying the promises, symbols and themes of the Old Testament, to gain further insight into the books that follow.




Black (hace 3412 dias) (0)

Hi Petro & Schweet

Thanks for your comments - I agree partly with you but cannot understand why you both discuss Rev 7 from verse 9 and not the first part where he describe a group of people and then in verse 9 he said that after this group he saw another group, the multitude, which we are part of

Then I also agree strongly that we must look at the promisses and themes throuout the Bible - Starting with Genisis - ever wonder why the covenant with Abraham in Gen 15 verse 18 was never fulfilled? Israel still never received that promised land (see the borders). Did God lie to Abraham or is it still to be fulfilled?

The theme and prophecies regarding Israel is in the whole of the Old Testament. If I read books like Isaiah,Jeremiah,Ezekhiel,Daniel,Zechariah etc etc I see the plan God has for Israel till the end - it did not end with the birth of Christ. It end with Jesus landing with His feet on the mount of olives in Jerusalem(Zecha.14:4)

And then to the New Testament. Romans 11 says clearly what God's plan is with Israel. Verse 25 & 26 states clearly that at the moment their hearts are hardened but eventually they all will be saved.

Why can't our Christians accept that Gods plan with Israel is still ongoing and why cant we accept that they are very special to God(See verse 28 of Romans 11). ? We are all still saved or are we like those apostels that want to sit on His left -or right  hand side to be the most important.Verse 17 states clearly that we are only wild olive branches that were planted on the real one(Israel) and that we must be carefull not to be to arrogant.